Author Topic: Measuring freebore.  (Read 3458 times)

Offline Hammerhead

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Re: Measuring freebore.
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2019, 08:18:15 AM »
Hey I can see this from multiple points of view. Even yours Carnaby. Like Some folks I can seat a 95 SMK to out to the lands and shoot well under .5 but who wants to hand feed an ar is beyond me. The fact the the designed freebore was wayyyy too much has done more to hurt the  valkyrie  than anything ever posted in this forum.

Offline carnaby

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Re: Measuring freebore.
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2019, 03:18:17 PM »
Hey I can see this from multiple points of view. Even yours Carnaby. Like Some folks I can seat a 95 SMK to out to the lands and shoot well under .5 but who wants to hand feed an ar is beyond me. The fact the the designed freebore was wayyyy too much has done more to hurt the  valkyrie  than anything ever posted in this forum.
That's an interesting assertion. Chambers are tricky though because as we've seen, the chamber spec has to work with the cartridge specification at all tolerances. To get the bullet jump you want in an AR-15 can be done but then you are close to a minimum spec chamber which is a challenge in its own right. If I could go back in time I would increase the length and width of the AR-15 magazine well to work with cartridges loaded to 2.35" OAL. Wouldn't that be nice.

I will give you one thing though... it does seem that the neck diameter of the chamber specification was messed up and should have been 0.255" as in the original prints. My new chambers are run at 0.255" and I like them a lot better. When I neck bushing size 2/3 of the length of the neck from brass fired in the old chambers and compare with the new, the old shows a noticeable bulge and definitely cannot be chambered in the new barrels.

And a final word on bullet jump... I'm getting 0.75" 5-shot groups with ammo loaded to 2.285" OAL with a OAL to the lands around 2.34" or so. Personally I consider that quite good from an auto loader.

Offline KRC

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Re: Measuring freebore.
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2019, 04:15:03 PM »
I'm with Hammerhead on this one.

I think this cartridge was designed on a cocktail napkin during the last few cold ones of a long Happy Hour. (Hey, since AR shooters are buying bucketloads of CHEAP (non-Federal) ammo, let's make a cartridge that'll sorta fit in all those AR's out there that we can sell high priced ammo for. - it will (maybe/sometimes) shoot a heavy bullet and we can HYPE UP THE LONG DISTANCE ballistics (numbers anyways) performance!) This was followed by the Happy Hour design napkin being sent to the Legal department, where a couple of non-shooting marshmellow lawyers (safetysafetysafety!!!) further stretched out the freebore. (Hey, we're designing this to sell high-priced Federal ammo, not for reloaders who might stupidly want to load into the lands (or anyone that might want to HIT anything at long distance). Then, off to the R&D department where they refined and tested the cartridge on their apparently ONE SINGLE in-house AR barrel (which was likely a premium lapped barrel and COMPLETELY unlike the rough, mass-produced, unlapped button rifled barrels on most AR's). Then quickly off to Marketing to refine the HYPE and product launch.

Ooops! Doesn't shoot?
BLAME THE BULLET!       (or alternately the reamer guy)
Waitdahminnit - design a cartridge and ammo around a specific bullet, then when it fails in the market, blame the BULLET???
(Get someone at Sierra to talk - "there was nothing wrong with that bullet") So after you pull your product, have your vendor reconfigure their bullet (thicker jacket) to compensate for your (lack of) engineering, and some dumbass builds a BOLT rifle to demo how good the cartridge REALLY is, and some (SOME! but not many) hard-working, meticulous load developing, handloading, precision shooters get this abomination to actually shoot, it's now legit?

Not freakin' likely. This baby will die a slow lingering death.

PS - I fell better now . . . . 


Let the flaming begin . . .

Offline Hammerhead

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Re: Measuring freebore.
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2019, 06:30:15 PM »
Kinda seems like the marketing dept. got way out ahead of r&d for sure. Heck I looked thru my records and  a 90 SMK that was the original marketing bullet they stated was supersonic to 1300yds with killer accuracy and so on, touched my lands at an OAL of 2.415. couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it.  >:(

Offline 1000 yrd guy

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Re: Measuring freebore.
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2019, 04:40:45 AM »
Lets not forget that almost all new cartridges that come out have early issues. This one in particular is a bit diff in that it is a supposed to be a long range AR cartridge .I dont see all the fuss not to say a lot of guys are struggling to find consistent accuracy, I myself have loaded almost every bullet under the sun for my cheap PSA and zeroing in on my final loads. I can now work my way right out to 1000 no problems and I am not that good of a shooter with my old eyes and shaky hands. I enjoy the challenge of working through load development since I enjoy reloading as much as I enjoy shooting. Give it time, my feeling is this puppy is here to stay and I cant wait to take down some yotes this winter with it instead of the boring ole .223 . ;)

Offline Hammerhead

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Re: Measuring freebore.
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2019, 05:35:18 AM »
The Val on coyotes hits like Thor's hammer no doubt. The old ones that hang up a half mile out are still in grave danger. I'm still very optimistic about the success of the cartridge with the new shorter bullets arriving on the market it's going to help all the non handloaders out and in turn the Val. It's just such a handloader only round right now for the people that want the high precision that was hyped up in the beginning.

I did speak via email with Berger a week or so back and they indicated that the 82BT's that are the holy grail for my rifle are not coming back from being discontinued but a replacement will likely be around sometime close to Christmas.

Offline 1000 yrd guy

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Re: Measuring freebore.
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2019, 03:59:43 PM »
Hammer I agree with alot of your thoughts ,however as I remember when the Valk was hyped up (shot show 18) and else where it was more about long range that accuracy. The accuracy will come with time, its takin me a full summer and a lot of different powders and bullets but I am def zeroing in now.And im sure that loads im getting good results with prolly shoot like hell in your gun .Its def a challenge .

Offline carnaby

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Re: Measuring freebore.
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2019, 01:25:52 AM »
The new 90 smk load from federal has given me consistent sub moa accuracy when their initial offering would barely hold 3" at 100 yards. The new bullet may be a factor. They are also loading a lot lighter, as muzzle velocity is down over 100 fps and is surprisingly consistent shot to shot.

Offline Flygrimm

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Re: Measuring freebore.
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2019, 08:36:17 AM »
Carnaby

Does the new load have the guts to consistently make it to 1K?

Took my Valkyrie out for the first time a couple of weeks ago.  Got it on paper at 100 with flawless function.  Was using the Federal 75 grain.  Iím going to use the Hornady 88 factory on my next trip. 

Hopefully I can do it justice.

Stuart

Offline carnaby

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Re: Measuring freebore.
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2019, 01:51:51 PM »
Does the new load have the guts to consistently make it to 1K?

Yes it does. At 2650 fps at the muzzle that puts it over 1.2 Mach at 1000 yards, and that's at sea level. Even at 2500 fps out of the muzzle from a shorter barrel at say 500 feet above sea level and 60 F it's at 1275 fps which is around 1.17 Mach.

The claims of supersonic performance to 1300 yards are of course baloney. The 90 SMK needs 2700 fps at the muzzle to get to 1300 yards above 1.0 Mach, and transonic flow is typically accepted to start around 1.2 Mach so performance at 1300 yards is likely to be poor. The only real way to get there is with a 24"+ barrel and 95 SMK bullets, and even then the bullet will likely be in the transonic flow region by 1100 to 1200 yards.

But yeah, 1000 yards, no problem. I've shot the 80 SMK and 88 ELD at 1000 yards with good results from a 24" barrel. 

Offline Flygrimm

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Re: Measuring freebore.
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2019, 06:54:36 PM »
That sounds good.  1000 is my eventual goal.  Maybe the reduction in MV will lead to better brass (primer pocket) life.  Itís good to know that I donít have to take the velocity to extremes to get the distance I want.

Thanks

Stuart

Offline 1000 yrd guy

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Re: Measuring freebore.
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2019, 04:29:19 AM »
Carn,Im glad to see that Im not the only one who says velocity numbers from the bullet makers are BS. Sure if you have a 28 inch barrel you can get close but who the hell shoots that but a few, the valk was designed for AR so why they dont publish the data for 20-22 even the 16 inch barrels that are AR common is beyond me. I have 20 inch and wish I had at least 22 maybe Ill bump up this winter, and am anywhere from 2500 fps to 2700 in most of my heavies, the Nosler rdf 85 that I really like cause I can get to a 1000 easily still is border line slow in my opinion. Even at max powder on the Hornady 88s i was well under 2650 fps. And the powders that gave the highest velocity's for me shot like poop. You hear guys on forums chirping numbers like 3000-3400 fps WTH they shooting.

Offline Danno_

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Re: Measuring freebore.
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2019, 12:01:21 PM »
I'm loading 85 RDF's through a 22" 6.5t at 2700 fps with 26.9 gr of PP2000MR. Using Federal brass with no primer pocket issues. It shoots sub moa. SD around 10 ES around 25. I've only been able to shoot out to 600 and it shoots great.